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  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Stone freeDarlene Armenta02-16-05  10:38 pm
Ingrid or someone, Please advise!jeff18 12-28-05  12:08 pm
Proper diet after flushAnonymous01-28-06  10:05 am
THANK YOU, THANK YOU , THANK YOU INGRID!!!!Deborah Hawes12-01-04  03:16 pm
1 year after gall baldder removalAnonymous10-12-05  03:20 pm
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There have literally been hundreds of posts to this thread. The first post was on July 6, 2000. Posts from that date through April 26, 2002, have been archived in the main section of Kitchen Doctor. The subsequent posts are found under Gall Bladder Flush, Parts IV-VII. The ability to add to those topics has been removed, but Part VIII is now open. Visitors are encouraged to read the main pages on Kitchen Doctor before posting to the board.

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Howard John
Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 02:11 pm:   

Hi,

I have been experiencing some extreme discomfort, which I have been told may be gall stones. But the circumstances are a little odd. I am not a heavy drinker (maybe 3-4 beer on the weekend only). About 2 months ago, we had friends over and we drank a little more than usual (4 or 5 beer). That night in bed a had a VERY uncomfortable "dull" pain just below the rib cage. I wasn't able to sleep, and nothing I took seemed to help. Now we did each pizza as well that night, so the beer may have been coincidental. I also have a hiatus hernia, which I thought may have contributed.

But 3 times since, drinking more than one beer causes this same pain. Have you ever heard of alcohol causing gall bladder attacks? I am going to try the flush anyway, and see what happens.

Thanks.
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Anonymous
Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2004 - 10:34 pm:   

I don't know about alcohol causing attacks but I am convinced caffeine has caused the two I have had. My first attack came on immediately after I drank Coca Cola. This was after I'd experienced several niggling pains after having drank Coke previously. The next attack came on after drinking coffee, no food was taken. Since then I've avoided both and fortunately no problems to date.
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henny lubbers
Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 05:12 am:   

Hello,

I have one more interesting item to share with you which could help people to decide on choosing for a gallbladder removal or not.

I am from the Netherlands and about a year ago there was a scientific publication about a research done over the past few years where two researchers have been researching hundreds of gallbladder removals in the Netherlands. They investigated all these cases to see how these patients were doing.

They found out that in 25% of these cases the patients told the researchers that the removal of the gallbladder had not the desired effects. After the operation they still experienced pains and discomfort in the stomacharea. So, the researchers concluded that many doctors too quickly decide on having the gallbladder removed where they donít look at other reasons that could effect these stomach pains. The diagnosis is not done right. There is not always a link between the pain complaints and the appearance of gallstones. Patients can have so-called "silent' gallstones that cause no problems at all. They also investigated the cases where the removal of the stomach did have the desired effect. These patients had no more pain and could live a painfree life.

So, based on these cases they developed a diagnosis model which can predict if a gallbladder removal will have success with a patient or not.
They found out that patients who have before the operation only pain in the upper stomach and beside that have no additional problems like stomach burning (acidburning . .. do you understand?), a blown up feeling of the stomach (do you understand?), a lot of developing of gasses or burping ; these patients have about a 100% guarantee of no more pain after the operation. If you have any of these additional healthproblems mentioned above the chance of a a successful painfree life after gallbladder removal are low / slim.

I hope this information will be useful for people in their decision on surgery or not.

Good luck and best wishes from the Netherlands!


Henny Lubbers
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henny lubbers
Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 05:21 am:   

Hello Ingrid,
Some time ago I posted a message on this board as I needed more information about gallbaldder flushes.
I would like to share with you what has happened since. As I told you : I had serious problems with my upper stomach for many years but the doctors never thought about gallstones. Finally I was diagnosed with gallstones and due to the amount of gallstones they suggested surgery for me. I was considering a gallbladderflush due to problems with my gallbladder. But finally I decided against it.

I had serious doubts about the positive effects and risks of the flush on me personally. That doesnít mean to say that liver flush cannot be beneficial to others! I read many articles about people who have done the flush and also about what can go wrong. I read that gallstones can leave the gallbladder due to the flush but then can get stuck somewhere else. Besides your gallbladder could also have a certain degree of an infection which cannot be helped with a flush.

Anyway after the diagnosis I tried for 3 months different homeopathic medicines to get rid of the gallstones. But my pain complaints after a meal stayed and even got worse. So at the end of December I decided to have the gallbladder operation. I was operated (laparoscopy) on the 6th of January. The surgeon said that he had discovered many small gallstones and also a chronic infection of the gallbladder that had been there for a loooong time. So no matter what I had done with liver flushes the helath risks with an infected gallbladder stayed.
The next day I could go home and recover at home. We are now about one month later and until now I have absolutely no more pain after eating something. The first two weeks I took it slowly with certain things like fatty foods, spicy foods. But after two week I tried other stuff and I had no more problems. I am so relieved. You cannot believe how happy I am after so many years of pain. My weight had become very low before the operation due to the stomach problems. Since then I have regained 3,5 kilograms in one month! I have been tired for about 3 weeks after the operation but now I feel very well.

So I am positive about the operation. I don't know about the long term consequences of having to live without a gallbladder as in my opinion the gallbladder has a positive function.

So, Ingrid, maybe you could advice me on what to do and not to do with my diet to improve my health on a long term basis.

Greetings,

Henny
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Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 11:03 pm:   

Have had gall bladder pain since the birth of my daughter two years ago (initially mis-diagnosed as referral pain from a dislocated rib from the pregnancy). Have been trying natural options, including a lemon juice/olive oil flush (twice with apple juice fast before discovering Stone Free), to try to get rid of the pain. Three different doctors have told me I need to have the gall bladder removed (although I haven't had an ultrasound to verify stones-no insurance).

I have been taking the Stone Free for about two months now. Initially the pain was significantly less than before, but it is now back to a fairly high level (dull, hot pain under my right ribcage at least once or twice a day, sometimes sharp).

I have just a few questions I am hoping you can answer. First, is it normal for the pain to subside and then rear up again after taking the Stone Free for a period of time? How much longer should I take the Stone Free before trying the lemon juice/olive oil protocol? What exact amounts of lemon juice, olive oil and epsom salt (if any) do you recommend? Also, after reading the posts from the last few months I also plan on doing an anti-parasitic protocol (garlic and black walnut hulls). Do you have any other recommendations regarding parasites? I had parasites several years ago that I thought I had gotten rid of. Is it possible they've been with me all this time? How likely is it that parasites could contribute to gall bladder problems? And my last question, if there are no stones (or sludge) in the gall bladder, just an infected gall bladder, does the Stone Free have any affect or is there something else that would more specifically treat the infected organ?

Thank you for responding to any or all of these questions!
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Ingrid
Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 05:21 pm:   

Sometimes, it is a little difficult for me to comment because many people would appear to be assuming that they have gall stones when no corroborating evidence exists. Others are worrying about parasites that also may or may not be present. Some think that one flush is enough, but many have written that they continue to dredge hundreds of stones each time they ingest the olive oil and lemon juice, this for the first 6-8 times they do this flush. This means that as the gall bladder is flushed, more stones move downwards.

The metabolic problems associated with gall stones are not addressed by either the flush or surgery so if one is not producing the gastric secretions necessary for a healthy gall bladder, removing the gall bladder will not correct the digestive issues. These can only be addressed through proper diet, avoidance of foods that are hard to digest, and use of supplements that assist digestion and metabolism.

My own experience with persons who have permitted the gall bladder to be surgically removed is that the need for a perfect diet is increased because once the gall bladder is no longer there, some other part of the body tends to function as the reservoir for metabolic residuals. Obviously, this problem does not make itself apparent in the first weeks and months following surgery, but over time, one usually finds that some other system develops the capacity to handle what isn't emulsified or metabolized properly.

Obviously, everything depends on the measures taken to mitigate the challenges, but my feeling is that surgeons do not have a long-term perspective of the patient and the patient's problem so removal of the immediate problem is all they really can do. In my situation, I see people who had the gall bladder removed years ago and present now with different complications having the same energetic cause: excess water, low fire.

Thus, while many people may want quick results, others may want to try something before doing something irrevocable, and the purpose of this forum is to allow people to exchange thoughts and experiences.
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Anonymous
Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 05:53 pm:   

I am glad to find this site though late for prevention of my aflictions. For a year I have been trying to find out what this dull pain was in my chest. I was diagnosed with asthma, but going to a pulmonary specialist, he said my lungs were fine. Then, I had a full work up of cardio tests, this was fine, too. Last month, I had a terrible attack of pain in my upper back and chest after a holiday eating binge. Usually, I watch my fat intake because of this occasional pain when I go too far, but this time it was worst. I went to the dr., had an endoscopy and was diagnosed with acid reflux and gastritis. After a month on the prescribed acid blockers, I still have occasional pain everyday. I suspected gallstones and are scheduled for tests in another week. If I need surgery, I am ready because I am tired of being sick and I am hungry. I eat no fat because I go into misery. My question is I have already had a hysterectomy, how can I prevent excess water/low fire after the surgery?
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Anonymous
Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 12:55 pm:   

I have been reading the postings its good to know I'm not alone. I have an ultrasound scheduled for tomorrow am. The doctor thinks it could be gallstones. I seem to have a symptom noone else mentioned. SWELLING. Overnight a lump the size of the palm of my hand appeared on my right side above my waist & below my breast. I have no pain just an irretation and wicked acid reflux. I also have loss of appitite. I placed bricks at the head of my bed under the box spring to elevate the bed and got the best nights sleep I have had in days! So I wonder if I have a hiatal hernia as well? I was checked at emergency and the blood work was normal and they ruled out standard hernias.Any advise?
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Anonymous
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 03:24 pm:   

Ingrid-
I went back and saw the results of my ultra soung and I am full of large gall stones. My doctor said if I had tried the flush it could have brought on a severe attack requiring emergency surgery due to the fact that most of my stones would not fit through the opening to be expelled. I am eating a low fat /fat free diet and feel much better but surgery is a must. I have too many stones of such a large size to break them up. Please if you disagree with anything by doctor said address it so I can show him your comments. I really do not want surgery but I am told I have no choice I am only 42 and I'm not sure what my future health will be with out it. Tha doctor said I could go back to my usual what ever it may have been. Some how I have a hard time believing that.
thanks,
k~
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JohnC
Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 12:05 am:   

Ingrid- Hello, I have been very ill for a long time and after many tests including blood, upper gi small bowel follow, colonoscopy and spiral ct, they came up with acute IBS with a hella spastic colon. I am taking donnatal, which is nightshade/barbituate- slows digestion, gastric juices and smooth muscles. (I am very health interested lately and my Moms exp with gallstones, unnecessary gb removal, then uterus removal got me reading your forum, and really feeling my love for her, shes done so much for others and everyone thinks shes a hypochondriac, I feel such murderous intent to anyone who ever wronged her I can not tell you.) Anyway, I am still to be tested for parasites but my question is will the nightshade-slowed digestion lead to possible gall stone problems in the future? And this is off topic, but they saw a piece of waste trapped in my appendics that may be a problem in the future if the organ becomes infected, is there a good flush for that organ as well? Thank You and may you enjoy a lifetime of good health!
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Anonymous
Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 07:45 pm:   

I've found out that I do not have gallstones, but the acid reflux and gastritis has caused much discomfort. I purchased acidopholis, Xandu, and B 12. All aggravate the acid, but energy is better. I hestitate to take the acidopholis because of it encouraging acid production. What can I do, I eat a no fat diet, lost weight, but still miserable on most days even with medications. What do you suggest?
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Ingrid
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 01:50 am:   

Why would a probiotic increase acidity?
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Anonymous
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 01:39 pm:   

Do you know where I might find ultrasounds of a "good" gallbladder vs "sick" gallbladder online? I just had an ultrasound yesterday and would like to prepare myself one way or the other for my doctor next visit.

Also, when reading about liver flushing online, some recommend the parasite flushing as well. Would the parasite flush be considered the apple juice and water fast?

Thanks for your time.
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Barbara
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 05:36 pm:   

Ingrid

Some months ago I wrote on this site. I was very disheartened at the time having carried out two flushes, passing loads of mainly green stones and still being quite poorly. I also took a full course of stone free and had lost nearly two stone on a low fat diet.

My scan showed a number of small stones, but they have given me hours of agony of a period of three years or more.

I was very ill on the first two flushes, passing out etc.,(there was a whole year between them) and felt I could never do another one. However, I have just tried another flush I read about. I took epsom salts at 6.30 and 4 ozs oil and 2 ozs lemon whisked together at 9.30 ish followed by some apple juice to take the taste away.

This time I wasn't ill, though I didn't pass as many stones. They were all small and there were only two green ones. (Last time they were mostly green.) Does this mean there are less to pass, the stone free has shrunk them or just that I didn't take enough oil I wonder.

I have just read that Devil's Claw can shift gall stones and have bought some of the recommended tablets.

Surgery is getting ever closer and I would appreciate any advice/support.

Thank you so much
Barbara
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Ingrid
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 10:57 pm:   

Barbara,

There is not enough information here, but it sounds as though you are somewhat better than before? If so, I would persevere with what seems to be working best for you.

Have you tried radishes? apple juice and nothing but apple juice for three full days?

Good luck!
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Barbara
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 02:43 pm:   

Thank you for replying Ingrid.

I have tried three days of fresh apples I put through the food processor but will try just apple juice for three days very shortly along with another flush.

I have nibbled on radishes. Do I need to eat nothing but radishes for a few days?

The Devil's Claw apparently increases the bile flow and I have felt movement in the gallbladder area. I am hoping things have at least been loosened ready for the next flush.

Thanks again
Barbara
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LittleFlower
Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 06:11 pm:   

I have asked I think all these questions the last 6 mts.It took doctors 4 mts. to find my problem. I had no pain. I had had off and on for yrs .I Was told it was acid atttacks.
I am now 7 days free from my gall bladder.I had the new operation. 4 holes.. lol. 4 bandaids.7 staples. My gall bladder was infected.But no pain.The function test showed it was not working well.No way would i go through flushes when my operation was over in 35 minutes.
Now that's not bad for a widow who wants to enjoy life and her grand kids.
Lord Bless..
LittleFlower
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TomM
Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 10:47 am:   

Boy there are a lot of people struggling with this gall stone thing. I have read so much and it definitly sounds like surgery (as recommended by the MD) is not the best or only solution. I have only had 4 "attacks" over the last 3 years. But the last 2 have been within the last 2 months. An utrasound was done and low and behold I have a lot of gall stones. My question is this:

After all the reading I am confused as to a what exact steps I should take. The Stone Free, the flush itself, what about parasites? Even though my attacks are not that frequent, the last one was a whopper and I did go to the ER. It would be nice to get a 1-2-3 listing of what I shoud do to get started. I realize that each person may have different results and adjustments may need to be made - BUT I need to get started and would like a basic but detailed plan. I don't want to screw up and do something out of sequence. Thanks for all the great information.
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TomM
Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 11:37 am:   

I always forget to say something. I read somewhere else that a) gallstones really can't be passed naturally ie a flush, and most if not all of the "clumps" that are assumed to be stones are really just the by product of the oil and citrus clumping together and b) (read on different site than "a" above) that the possibility of a stone getting stuck is very real and could require emergency surgery.

Please comment on these issues as they seem to be watershed type of issues. They make all the difference.

I realize that Ingrid has said that stones can't get stuck, atleast not to the point where surgery is required. Has it ever happened. If so it is possible and I would like to make sure that I take all precautions against that.

BTW- does any one know of what can be done or taken during an attack to relieve the pain? Flushing is great but what about the pain during an attack? I would like to have something on hand that works because pepsid AC and Tums and Pepto Bismol are useless for me.

Any feed back to these comments and questions would be greatly appreciated.
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Barbara
Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 11:14 pm:   

As soon as I feel an attack coming on I take 2 tablespoons of olive oil and one of lemon juice. Sometimes I have to increase the dose a bit, but it usually works within half an hour.

I have done half a dozen flushes but still have stones and wonder whether the green pea like things I have been passing are actually stones or just clumps of oil and citrus. It would be most disheartening if I've been going through all this for nothing.
Barbara
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Ingrid
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 04:44 pm:   

Folks, folks!

I guess a forum is where people ask questions and share experiences and opinions, but please go to the main site FIRST.

The quick answer is that there are cholesterol stones and bile stones. This explains the differences in color!

It's very easy for people to have opinions without trying something. The most important "testimonials" have to be from those who were suffering who are no longer suffering. Whatever they did to end the misery has to be taken seriously.

This said, there is a fairly wide spectrum here from olive oil and lemon juice to surgery. There is another spectrum and that is that to the extent that olive oil and lemon juice work, only a few farmers and grocery stores profit; but to the extent that Stone Free and surgery work, the professionals are in the game.

What we are all seeking is a safe response to an ongoing challenge. That challenge is that some people do not metabolize well so they form stones and some are blessed not to have ever had such an experience . . . and then there is someone like myself who went through a few months of gall bladder agonies after my mother died and I was under a lot of stress when trying to clean up her estate. So, I know what Tom is saying. I was so out of it once that I nearly checked myself into ER, completely forgetting that I had lots and lots of Stone Free within a few feet of where I was standing. I took six tablets every half hour and the attacks subsided.

I have done the flush many, many times. I agree with Barbara, it's not worth doing them unless you really need to manage the problem this way, but there are so many people who have benefited that it's not fair to suggest that because Little Flower chose surgery that others should follow her advice. Many people are more attached to their body parts, but not everyone has infections on top of the other issues.

This is why I do not take a one size fits all approach and why I encourage a lot of exchange of experiences. I am not suppressing truth on this bulletin board. I have deleted a post simply because I personally disagreed with the content. I have only deleted posts that are blatant advertisements for products people are hyping or posts that use profanity. Otherwise, this is really a place where you can express whatever you want.

Now, look at it my way. I have been in the alternative healthcare world for more than thirty years. I spent a lot of time and money supporting 14 web sites with seven bulletin boards. I have an investment in research, reference books, and inventory, and I have told everyone they can drink apple juice, eat radishes, or flush themselves with lemon juice and olive oil . . . or, if they want to pop pills, my experience is that Stone Free is a uniquely reliable product. I have other gall bladder herbs and formulas. I have boldo in both tea and tincture form, culver's root in tincture form, and some formulas that cannot be sold on the web but only to practitioners or patients who actually have consultations. So, I am being as fair as is possible within the constraints of a forum such as this.

However, precisely because we do not always know that a pain that could be precipitated by French fries is really due to gall stones, I always suggest that people check out their conditions with someone who can evaluate what is going on. If an ultrasound reveals stones, that is useful information and the risk of foregoing proper treatment for a potentially dangerous condition is diminished. However, there is a risk of the gall bladder rupturing. It's rare but when it happens, it is a serious emergency. To the best of my knowledge, this has never happened because of olive oil and lemon juice. My hunch is that it occurs when there is a complex condition in the gall bladder, perhaps more than just stones but infection as well. On top of this, there could be parasites. Take a look at the pictures in the main part of the site and read both what is said about gall stones as well as what is there on parasites:

http://www.kitchendoctor.com
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TomM
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 01:25 am:   

Thanks Ingrid for your time and energy. I continue to research in an effort to figure out the best course of action for me. I was reading a series of posts on another website that were talking about experiences doing flushes. It was gruesome. Most experience great pain at various points. Some not until the 2 or 3 flush. some had to get surgery because a huge stone got stuck. This concerns me. I did buy some stone free tablets and plan on taking them for 2 or 3 months before attempting a flush. Are there other things I can be doing in preparation to "flush day"? I want to do all I can to avoid going through what appears to be fairly common - that is very painful and drawn out episodes.
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Barbara
Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 04:38 pm:   

Does that mean, Ingrid, that some stones won't dissolve with Stone Free and won't come away with any number of flushes?

I think Littleflower is very lucky to have had her surgery. I seem to have been waiting for ever. I have a two week holiday abroad booked for June, when the NHS said it would be all over and done with, and no one will insure me now. I'm really worried and flushing like mad. If I'd known it would take so long I'd have paid privately.
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Ingrid
Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 12:24 am:   

This is obviously very challenging to me, both of your posts, because I have known about this flush for more than 30 years and have never heard of any side effect other than queasiness and nausea when looking at oil. I think a very careful diet is crucial: lots of fruit, no microwaved food. Keep me in the loop and good luck.
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Concerned
Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 01:16 pm:   

After reading the posts on this forum and countless other websites it seems that this whole area of flushing, stone free, and general treatment for gallstones seems to be very controversal. Some sites will tell you that the components of stone free (dandlion root, tumeric etc) although safe should not be taken by someone with gallstones. Many sites say (as TomM said above) that stones can get stuck and cause real problems. Some sites say they can't get stuck. Boy this is rough. Having said this I ask the following: has anyone gone back in for another ultrasound after several flushes to confirm that the stones are gone? I mean if there is no pain for a while doesn't mean the stones are gone. Months may elapse between attacks. It seems that some sort of benchmark testing research should be available. Does anyone know of anything?
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Concerned
Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 01:26 pm:   

Does anyone know of any place where there is any discussion of what it is about stone free or any other substance that claims to dissolve gallstones? Has there been any official testing? Are there any neutral consumer organizations or any formal entity that will claim and backup with clinical test results, that any product, herb or medication does in fact deliver on its promise to dissolve gallstones? This is a huge national problem, it seems like there must be some research available.
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cavebear
Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 02:47 pm:   

For a few weeks now I've been having discomfort in the right abdominal area, occasionally extending around to my back. An educated guess led me to read up on gallbladder woes and I find this discomfort seems to be pretty classic. It's worse after coffee, tea or fatty foods, and it's been generally alleviated by a regimen of tincture of gold coin grass.

Last night, after about two weeks of GCG treatment, I attempted a flush, though I started with only half a cup each of oil and lemon juice since I wasn't sure how violent the effects were going to be. After about nine hours I passed a load of, well, something. There were possibly thirty or forty objects from pea-size to kumquat size, and 95% of them were roughly the same color as the (excuse me but this is unavoidable) feces which surrounded them. That is to say, a yellowish brown. They were all floating, and all far smoother-looking than a normal bowel movement, which is why I thought they might be stones, but it seems that most people are passing greenish to black stones. Could this simply have been fecal matter compacted and made to float by the oil?

I have to say I felt better afterwards, but when I got up this morning, the discomfort was back. I realize that I didn't go the whole hog on the flush, and this might be part of the problem, but am I on the right track here? I'll be honest, the idea of picking through that to figure out if they were stones or not kind of puts me off.

Thanks for any helpful comments.
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Ingrid
Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 01:31 am:   

Concerned,

Basically, you will never find a peer-reviewed clinical trial of any product that cannot be patented. So, all you have are whatever the producer can state, which is very limited, or whatever people say of their own volition.

What I am proposing is that people distinguish the bile stones from the cholesterol stones because there is no reason that one formula would be equally effective for both types of stones.

This said, a product such as Stone Free, does not dislodge stones so whatever the hypothetical fear of stones getting stuck might be, this is not a risk. The worst risk would probably be that one was in a real emergency and tried to manage a crisis with a product intended for long-term use and gradual results.

The second risk would be that the formula doesn't work for certain people. Unfortunately, it's impossible to predict what would happen because people, their diets, as well as their health vary so much.
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Ingrid
Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 01:33 am:   

Cavebear,

If you read some of the earlier posts, you will see that some people have had to repeat the flush many times. The theory is that the stones are backed up so that as the gallbladder empties, it is filled up again . . . and again . . . and again until finally all the accumulated stones are flushed out.
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Concerned
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 01:40 pm:   

FYI:

I finally got in a saw a GI doctor as a followup to my attack on May 5. I went to the ER and had numbers things tested among them was an ultrasound. It was determined that I had stones. They talked of removing the gallbladder right there and then but the results of the blood test indicated no infection so I was released and was referred to a GI Dr./Surgean. Here is what this particular Dr. had to say:

You can try doing the flushing thing but it doesn't do any good.

The presense of stones in the gallbladder indicates that the gallbladder is not working and never will work again even without stones.

The pain from an attack is not from a stone getting stuck because people have these attacks even if they don't have stones. And if a stone does get stuck it won't dislodge by itself.

The treatment that zaps the stones with sound waves is not hardly ever used anymore. A because the stones always come back and that the smaller stones are the one that are more likely to travel out of the gallbladder and get stuck in a bile track and cause more serious problems.

The treatment that involves taking a medication orally to dissolves stones is hardly done anymore and most (if not all) insurance companies won't pay for this medication because it will cost thousands of dollars per year and involves doing monthly blood tests to insure against possible adverse effects on the liver.

Stones originate in the gallbladder because the gallbladder isn't working properly. There are no stones in the liver.

Diet has very very litlte to do with gallstones. Studies of different cultures in various regions indicate that diet has little to do with the onset of stones. He says it is mostly hereditary.

In modern times the gallbladder really isn't used that much because we tend to eat 3 times per day. This causes the gallbladder to squeeze out it's bile too often for it to really filll up and concentrate the bile. Back when we ate much less frequently the gallbladder had a more useful function.

10% of his surgery patients don't even have stones and they still have symptoms so they have their gallbladder removed.

Just though I would share what I was told. He said I wasn't in an urgent situation so it was up to me as to how I wanted to handle it. He did not pressure me to do surgery however all his statements reinforced the fact that surgery is the obvious solution.

I have opted not to get surgery ... atleast not yet. I have only had 4 attacks in my life. Ofcourse they have all been within the last 3 - 3.5 years. I started on the stonefree and milkthissle. I started noticing slight naseausness from time to time throughout the day. I stopped to see if there is any difference. So far it hasn't gone away. It is so subtle though. If I am not thinking about it I don't notice it. It may be in my head because that would possibly be a symptom of a stuck stone in the bile track somewhere. That I do not want so it may just be nerves causing it. Who knows.
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Ingrid
Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 12:12 pm:   

Concerned,

Maybe you need to ask the doctor if he has any experience with alternatives, such as dietary changes or getting rid of the microwave oven. As I have personally reported, I only had gallstone symptoms once in my life, during a period of really intense stress. I have done the flush, but never passed anything of note. However, my best friend had chronic gall bladder problems her entire life and has done the flush many, many times and passed a lot of stones, hundreds and hundreds. Doing this periodically makes a world of difference in her life. Ergo, I disagree with him. I also disagree with the notion that the gall bladder is not really needed. This would suggest that our Creator made a mistake a doctor can fix, along with tonsils, adenoids, appendix, and retired uterus. My observation, over 30 plus years, is that while people who have had the gall bladder removed often do feel better initially, removing the gall bladder does not solve a fundamental problem of metabolic imbalance. Therefore, after some years, most of these people develop conditions in other areas of the body, but these conditions are rarely attributed to gall bladder removal or metabolic imbalance. They will be blamed on just what you heard: heredity or ethnicity or gender or whatever. Only if one approaches physiological through the windows of energetic medicine can one see the interconnectedness of all facets of life. In such instances, one will see specific patterns associated with cholesterol stones and other patterns relating to bile stones.
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Barbara
Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 06:34 pm:   

Me again! Still haven't had my surgery, but thought I'd let you know I've discovered something brilliant. A tablespoon of cider vinegar daily seems to have cleared up my gallbladder niggles and all the symptoms of infection, such as nausea, yellow tongue, bile body smell, etc.
Has anyone else experienced this?
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Ingrid
Posted on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 12:46 am:   

Well, well! That's great information. I'm guessing you weren't producing enough gastric secretions.

I hope you continue to improve and improve.
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noreenruthpenn
Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 05:46 am:   

can anyone tell me if it is possible to buy Stone Free in Israel;(or something similar) thank you I find the site very interesting
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Anonymous
Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 11:08 pm:   

This site is awesome. I have had terrible right quadrant, side and back pain over the last month. I went to a fat free diet and things have improved alot. However, I still have some "soreness" in the gall bladder area. Does it take a while to calm it down?
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Ingrid
Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 01:31 am:   

In small quantities, we have not had trouble shipping to Israel, but you should find out what the regulations are before placing an order.
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noreenruthpenn
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 06:33 am:   

ingrid thank you today i went to our big Natural Health shop and he advised a combination of Artichoke Leaves(natural herbal capsules) and Dandelion Root capsules so hopefully this willhelp.I have done the lemon juice/olive oil flush twice and feel better already.How often is it safe to do it ie.the three tbs./juice of a lemon one. I have also been drinking a lot of apple juice and have cut down drastically on fatty foods. This morning I had a vaguie pain which passed quickly.The last sever pains I had were last Thursday some hours after I ate a spicy stir-fry. Thanks again great site.
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stoney
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 04:57 pm:   

I had a fairly severe attack in early may. I went to the ER. I have stones. Ofcourse all the doctors are saying that surgery is the only solution. For about a week after the attack I ate practically no fat what so ever. All went well. Then I started doing the stone free regiment. Eat a lot of apples. Drink organic apple juice, Fish oil, radishes etc. I developed a mild but cronic nasea about a week after I started to "eat right". It has been a month of naseau. Sometimes it is barely noticeable, never is it very bad at all but it is anoying. Has anyone dealt with this or experienced this. I haven't done a flush yet but plan on doing so soon.
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bileduct
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 04:59 pm:   

Does doing the flush and changing one's diet actually heal the gallbladder? Or is it just a case of getting the stones out but the gallbladder is still "diseased"?
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BackAching
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 10:53 pm:   

Some years ago after an unsuccessful colonoscopy, I was urged to have exploratory surgery and my gall bladder removed. I instead studied the variety of olive oil flushes and completed two of them one month apart. I experienced a rush of mental energy and my bowels started moving normally. Recently after a molar removal, following a stressful semester of graduate school, and following a rapid weight loss the previous semester, I developed severe abdominal and colon distress. An ultrasound revealed multivariable gallstones but an apparently healthy gall bladder. No indication of the size of the stones was given and none of the three doctors I have seen believe in anything but surgery. With medication I have begun to experience relief and cancelled the new colonoscopy that had been ordered. I don't want to be in a weakened condition and have further invasive tests. I have been drinking a lot of apple juice (juicer and bottled)and am feeling uneasy about attempting a flush since I may well have colon problems too.. either of my own doing or at the hands of an inexperienced doctor who left bruising as evidence on my abdomen. I am afraid to use epsom salts because of the possible ulcer which seems to be healing. My primary symptom of discomfort comes from eating bulk and manifests itself in my lower and mid back as well as bloating in my stomach. I am well read on the causes of gall stones and had begun to change my diet before the molar removal. The antibiotics, extreme stress, and previous 20 lb weight loss obviously contributed to the severity of my attack and I continue to have a fair amount of pain when I eat solids. Light meals and juicing do not produce as much pain. I am slowly improving. Juicing produces bowel movements but otherwise I am dependent on Mira Lax (polyethylene glycol)from the doctor or coffee enemas which I believe are not in my best interests to use on a regular basis. I am well read and may have to keep looking for a doctor who does understand something besides surgery. I read through the postings and have not found anything quite like what I am experiencing. Do you have any additional information for me? I had a fever before the molar was pulled but none since. I do not feel ill except when the pain overwhelms me. I am mostly afraid of the epsom salts and doing more damage. I'm willing to take it slower this time even with the flush because I feel so much worse this time than when I flushed previously. I also find it very stressful to fast on juice only for any length of time. I had not heard of your product before reading this posting site.
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Ingrid
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 12:31 pm:   

These last days have reminded me exactly how difficult it is to help people one sees in person, not to mention those one only knows via the internet.

Some of you know you have gall stones, some are suspecting this to be the case based on symptoms. If the symptoms subside using some of the strategies discussed on this site, the problem was most likely gall stones, but it is possible that some people have parasites and some are infected, possibly with Helicobacter pylori or some other pathogen.

Some of you go to doctors but once obtaining a diagnosis, you are dissatisfied with the recommendations because you believe an alternative treatment will work for you and that this treatment is less invasive. Others are self-diagnosing based on symptoms.

I try to tread a safe course, but this week it has felt like it is exceptionally zigzag. The risks one takes when failing to address a serious problem are sometimes quite great, enough so that I am thinking of a new article on this subject for the main part of the site.

For right now, all I want to post in response to the four posts here is that the the body has a simply remarkable capacity to heal itself, but it will seldom accomplish this if new insults are added to existing injuries.

It's impossible to overemphasize the importance of some really basic guidelines. People need water, good quality water. This is becoming scarce but it makes a difference immediately. Microwave ovens should not be used for anything except perhaps sterilizing medical equipment. They definitely should not be used for cooking food or even thawing things, and particularly not for warming up anything.

Almost everyone needs to choose their foods more carefully. How do I know this? Walk into any grocery store and take a look at what you see on the shelves and what other people have in their shopping carts. You know with total certainty that the majority of people are not eating wholesome food.

Practically everyone needs to clean up the cupboards at home and get rid of foods that are inappropriate and everyone needs to realize that reheating foods is not good.

Many people need probiotics or cultured foods. I think I'll just start on the article.
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Anonymous
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 05:58 pm:   

Hi to All!
I have been experiencing a large number of problems from what I believe are gallstones. In February my liver enzymes were slightly elevated. I got terribly ill at a chinese buffet a month later. Since that time, I have had right shoulder pain, right quadrant pain, back pain and right side pain. I also was having terrible nausea in the morning and some reflux. I have started on Stone Free and a low fat diet. The back pain and right quadrant pain are much better. However, my right side aches and is uncomfortable when I twist, sort of under my ribcage in the side/back. Has anyone had these symptoms with gall bladder problems? Also, Ingrid, how long do I continue the Stone Free? Thanks for a great site.
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Cait Whitson
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 08:42 pm:   

Ingrid,
I admire your patience, the many, many posts so often asking the same thing and here I am about to ask you to read another one. Brevity I warn, is not one of my strong points, but I will try to curb my natural verbosity.
2 and 1/2 years ago I had my first attack. Extreme stress at the time, financial problems, running my own business, told we had to leave our home etc. etc. I was also incidentally experiencing problems with menstruation, heavy bleeding and clotting and excessive pain.
I was scanned and yes, hundreds of stones was the report.
Attacks hospitalised me, lasted anything up to 12 hours but they stopped as quickly as they started and after waiting over a year for the operation I had been promised (UK NHS...same old, same old), and having had no symptoms for a year I refused the op.
Now the symptoms are back. Starting 5 weeks ago (incidentally on the day I ovulated) with a severe pain that subsided slightly after making myself sick and lasting maybe 40 minutes (this type of attack has continued over the last few weeks lengthened and been steadily more severe) to a recent bout where the pain lasted about 20 hours and I had, after all my Codydramol and Voltarol, a shot of Diamorphine and still felt the pain. This last attack put me in bed for one day and left me feeling as if I had been kicked in the chest and abdomen repeatedly, the day after I could barely walk.

I am and nearly always have been very stressed. Money being the main issue...like so many. My family have a history of gall stones. The hereditary links also stretch to alcohol dependence although mine is mild (in comparison). I smoke, I am a house painter, I never used to eat breakfast (I do from 3 weeks ago..that helps), I drink far too much coffee, most of my life I have drunk untreated spring water (Scottish rural life)..of course that was when I got round to drinking water between the smokes, the coffee and the wine.
I have been trying to keep down to 10 grams of fat per day and this is helping, I was not convinced that fat was the trigger, but maybe things have worsened and fat free certainly seems to help.
I have felt my gall bladder jump and move. I am definitely not processing food properly, my bowel movements (which I monitor scrupulously...how sad, I must get a life) have been most strange, not surprising given the meds, but thin stools, thin thin like dark green fat worms (sorry everyone, I'm sure you don't need this), but not light and my urine is not dark so no sign of jaundice.
I eat and cook mainly fresh food, not organic but fresh. I don't use a microwave. Our normal diet isn't fat laden, we don't eat a lot of fried or processed foods. I now find myself turning to processed food to keep my fat levels down and keep my belly full while doing a fairly strenuous job.
I have discussed at length with the GPs about the fact that I am convinced this is stress and hormonally linked - my reason for mentioning my cycle - they deny this strenuously. I have asked for help with my alcohol dependency, they reckon that it is unlikely that it is linked, but I have a referral (2 months waiting list). I am on the list for the op...probably 18 week wait to see the GI specialist then maybe a 26 week wait for the op...so at least I have time on my hands!!!

Probably far too much info, but what the heck, I thought I'd give you the whole picture before I ask the Q's.

I am desperate to try the flush, but having had 5 weeks of almost daily attacks of one sort or another and the last being so severe, I worry, if the bladder and all around is so distended (I can no way wear a pair of jeans or other waisted trousers) should I wait till I have had a period of calm. I am 2 days now clear of an attack of any sort (wahey!!). I need to do this over a weekend, I'm self employed and can't afford another day out, my clients are all barking at me like crazy as I am way behind on jobs and the stress of losing a day at work would probably annihilate me. Then again would the flush make me supercharged...who knows, maybe you. Anyway, I am trying to work out if it is OK to go ahead with the flush even if I have just had an attack.
I am so glad to find your flush. My own alternative health professional recommended a UK pint (20 fluid ozs) of oil to the juice of 6 lemons drinking the oil by the small wine glass full and the lemon juice as a chaser alternately, I tried it last time I had the attacks and just "baarrfffed". He recommended that I only use this if there was no gall bladder pain. Yours sounds much more palatable. I respect your advice and am very very keen to avoid surgery, just concerned about previous advice which is ever so conflicting and confusing.

Good things about gall stones...so far:
Losing nearly a stone in weight
cutting back on all and every vice...but not quitting so far!!!
Thinking more and more about nutrition.
Cait
P.S. I am a previous Candida Albicans sufferer too ...arrgghh...will my digestive system EVER work properly.
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joanna ryan
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 07:53 pm:   

I first experienced pain in december 2003;over the next 6 mnths i saw 5 doctors in total who all told me my pain was indigestion i kept telling them i thought it was gallstones but they refused to except this and prescribed omperazole and gaviscon for indigestion;the pain got worse and went from two to three attacks lasting a couple of hours every week to every other day i read about the liver flush and because i was convinced i had gallstones and the doctors wouldnt believe me i decided to treat myself;the pain didnt go away and i went back to the doctor yet again this time he did blood tests which said my liver and kidneys werent functioning properly he said hed book me in for a scan and in the mean time if the pain came back bad to come back to the surgery that was on the friday on sunday the pain came back and didnt go away i went back to the surgery on monday and the doctor gave me a prescription for gaviscon at this time i was convinced i had pancreatitus which is caused by untreated gallstones lodging in the bile duct;so because he wouldnt do anything for me i went to accident and emergency department of my local hospital because i had seen my doctor that day they kept me waiting 4hrs i said i thought i had pancreatitus and the doctor replied you dont have pancreatitus i made him take a blood test and 2hrs later i went back for the results he then told me i did indeed have acute pancreatitus and that my amalayse level was very high;i was then admitted to the ward and drip fed with nill by mouth for 4 days they told me my condition was life threatening i was taken for a scan which showed that three of the gallstones had become lodged 2 in my bile duct and 1 in my pancreatic duct a week later i had a 2 and a half hr endoscopy under mild sedation to remove the stones i was warned this was a dangerous procedure as i could have excess bleeding or they could perforate the bile duct ;the op was a succses but i was told i needed to have my gallbladder out as more stones could become dislodged in the future ;they were initially going to wait untill august for things to settle inside me as if id had the op straight away because of the tender pancreas i would have bled excessively;they sent for me and i had the op yesterday 21 june my surgeon told me that the op was a little tricky as another stone was lodged in the tube ;im in a bit of pain as i write as i dont much like taking pain killers the worst part was my surgeon likes to fit drains and mine was about a foot long inside me and was very uncomfortable i have my testtube full of green stones ;i am writing to warn people that if they have gallstones and a scan will verify this ;then be aware that they can dislodge and cause pancreatitus which is life threatening when the stone becomes lodged in the bile duct or pancreatic duct the bile juices cant escape so digests the organs instead the damage caused to me by the stones is the same as an alcoholic even though i rarely drink ;so if a scan confirms you have gallstones i personally would advise you to have your gallbladder removed;also i dont know if the flush made my condition worse or not but with hindsight i wouldnt take the risk of moving the stones as they can get lodged elsewhere i dont want anyone to go through what ive been through the damage to my pancreas means i should never touch alcohol again not even the odd drink at christmas if the doctors had listened to me and scanned for gallstones earlier and removed my gallbladder this wouldnt be the case ;remember gallstones can cause pancreatitus and each attack you have of pancreatitus you have a 1 in 40 chance of dying after an attack im very lucky to be alive ;im not condemming the flush or anything i just want you all to know the risks involved if gallstones are left untreated
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Ingrid
Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 12:40 am:   

Cait,

I suspect that the inhalation of paint fumes contributes strongly to sluggish liver function so even if you manage to reduce the role of substances and fat, you would have the perhaps even more dangerous fumes. I would suggest that you reinvent yourself as an environmentally conscious painter and look into paints with low volatile organic compounds. You can investigate this as a personal need as well as a benefit for clients who might be as unaware as you of the hazards. For instance, do people who are expecting a baby want to poison the baby with paints that outgas for years? what about the canaries?

I don't see a solution for the menstrual issues, stones, or discomfort until this primary aggravant is eliminated.

The rest you already figured out!
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Ingrid
Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 12:51 am:   

Joanna,

Thanks for sharing this. I'm sorry you went through all this but glad you have the situation under control and that you know what the issues are.

Now you understand the fine line. If people would take herbs to reduce the stones or do the apple juice fast (or radishes), the risks of a flush are practically nil. Also, some people take Epsom salts or induce spasms to force the stones to move, but others try to save money or rush the cure by doing the flush without preparation. While it seems to work for most people, there could always be someone who fails to prepare adequately for the flush or fails to support it with adequate strategies afterwards. This said, your issues spanned so much time that it's hard to say exactly what caused what. Remember what has been said several times: once the first load of stones is flushed out, the gall bladder tends to fill up again with more stones that are descending . . . and some people have had to do a series of 6 or 7 flushes before emptying all the stones.

Take good care of yourself!
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Ingrid Naiman
Username: Admin

Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 12:05 pm:   

This thread is now continued as Part IX

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